In this heartfelt episode of From Chains to Links, Kelly Burton and Ifeoma Ike are joined by Erin Horne McKinney and Cici Battle to tackle the unique challenges of being Black women founders and entrepreneurs. A raw, honest reflection into the costs of leadership, each guest shares tips on how to prioritize self-care, establish boundaries, and put oneself first while still standing in the gap for others. This vulnerable conversation is the perfect pillow for all those who need a safe place to rest and remind themselves of their power.
Welcome back to the show. I am Kelly Burton, your co-host, and I am here with Ifeoma Ike.
We waited all day for this.
I am so excited. It needs to be had.
It’s great to go through a day of regular programming and then end with an evening of magic. We might bring in the confetti already. How are you doing?
Introducing Erin And Cici
I’m doing great. I’m so excited about this season of the show. The conversations have been so amazing. They build on season one in ways that I don’t even think we could have anticipated. I’m so excited to be able to share the season with the world. I am excited about our guests. With us, we have Erin Horne McKinney who is my sister from another mister. We could go through a whole episode about our backstory, so we will spare you. Erin is our newly appointed Board Chair at Black Innovation Alliance.
Congratulations.
There are technically two co-founders of BIA, Aniyia Williams and me. Erin was there from day one, in the trenches with us on every major conversation. She likes to tell people that she came up with the name Black Innovation Alliance.
I did. I put in about ten names. Other people put in none.
She lied about that. I put in some. Mine were nearly as interesting. We’ve come a long way. We’ve had many versions of this conversation over the phone, being available, and having therapy sessions with one another because this work is so hard. Erin is an OG in this space. She’s like, “Don’t date me,” but we go back together. You go way back. You understand the history of this space in a way that no one else does that I’ve come across. I always lean on you to give me some perspective to be like, “Kelly, this is happening within the context of this broader timeline, so chill out.”
When you say OG in this space, though, for context, what she’s referring to is being entrepreneurial ecosystem builders. Many of us come out of that from being entrepreneurs and being like, “Nobody is addressing our issues the way they need to be addressed.” Being around there, I can name a lot of people who were there and put me on as well. To her point, it’s more about how sometimes, we cross reference, “Who did that?” May 2025 will be the 5th year anniversary of George Floyd’s murder. It doesn’t seem like it was a few years ago. When you think about it, it means BIA is almost five years old. A lot of these conversations I share with Kelly aren’t new conversations. It’s the first time that we can really authentically have them.
Thank you for coming.
Thank you for having me. Can I talk about how much I love Kelly though, too? This love fest started because I’ve been a huge fan of Kelly’s forever. She came into this space with such an authentic spirit of really building community with founders of color. That’s how I met her. The reason that BIA is what BIA is is because of Kelly and her heart. Aniyia did co-found it. She’s her ride-or-die.
Kelly is amazing. When you think about organizations, there’s not an organization I’ve ever seen have this exponential growth so quickly. It really is because of the 2 of them, but Kelly is the 1 here every single day pouring her heart and soul into this. It also is a testament to her leadership, which is a great segue to this conversation because it’s not often that you have an opportunity to work with these types of leaders like you all.
Thank you, Erin.
That was so good.
Iffy, do you want to introduce Cici?
I do. Cici Battle is somebody that we’ve been in each other’s ecosystems and sliding doors for a very long time. Some of it is in movement. Some of it is in equity and culture. Some of it is thrown in D&I spaces when we’re like, “We’re way more revolutionary than that, but also, we’ll take your check.” When we finally got into the same space, we were in New Orleans together. We were both on a panel for the Power Coalition.
What was crazy was if you looked down at our written notes as other panelists were speaking, we were writing down the same language to the point where on the panel, we were pointing at each other like, “What is in your head?” It was not just words like, “I’m thinking this.” It was phrases. I was like, “That’s scary. There’s somebody that thinks like me. I want to check on her afterward.”
We ate afterward and made this commitment to be like, “We’re going to stay in touch.” That is something I don’t take lightly but I also know it’s hard to do as both a founder and somebody who is a multihyphenate and has a lot of demands on their life as does Cici. Over time, we have found ways to create with each other, build clients with each other, and be honest with each other.
That’s a great segue to get into my sister and to introduce herself because she has created what I think is an amazing platform in Frolic Culture. Around this time, I was still struggling with my own thing that I was building out called Radical Sabbatical. Other than Tricia Hersey and folks like The Nap Ministry, to see somebody live in the truth of what frolic is and not talk about it in a way that can get whitewashed in the space of wellness but also have substance.
In some Black and Brown spaces, it’s still a struggle to be like, “Why is this our birthright? Why is this something that we have to do to survive?” Cici is about that life. She’s like, “We are dying without the ability to freely frolic.” She provides those spaces and curates those spaces. I’m really excited not only for what you’ve meant to me but what you have meant to our people to imagine differently. I’ll even say what you have meant to my mother. She has met my mother. We have sat in salt baths with Mama Bernice. What it means for Cici to see people across generations has also been inspiring. Thank you. I love you.
What I appreciate though is you can see someone who thinks like you, but you push me. You push me to dream. You push me to embody. We talked about it before we began around conflict. When you have a conflict with someone and you choose to return back to them, you love that person. You love them. It’s not like it has to be a big thing, but you can find any reason to be like, “I don’t deal with them anymore.” You already have a lot of stuff to do. We’re both founders. We’re both trying to do our own things but we always come back to each other in grace and love. Outside of what you do, I appreciate who you are, truly.
Thank you.
I’m excited to be here.
We’re at an age where we’re #NoNewFriends because we don’t have the space and capacity to take on one more person. That means I really love you if I brought you into my life at this stage of my life.
In multiple ways, because it’s easy to be just a work person or an at-home person but it’s like, “I want to work with you. I want to frolic with you.”
The Costs Of Leadership
I love this conversation. There are so many directions we could take. One of the reasons we wanted to do this episode is because every time you look up, you can see the ways that Black women are coming into their power. Even coming out of my mouth to say, “Coming into,” as if it’s new, it is becoming more present to other people and more clear to other people. We’ve been here doing this work, but it comes at a cost. It comes at a cost because Black women in this country are always the tip of the spear or always the ones to speak up, speak out, raise hell, and drive change for everybody.
Also, self-sacrifice.
Those are in ways that are not respected, reflected, compensated, and monetized. We pay the cost. Can we talk a little bit about what that has looked like in your life and your career?
A lot of health issues. A lot of missing out on things. I said this to my niece because my niece is like, “You really are chilling, auntie. I’m so proud of you.” I’m like, “I do.” She’s like, “I remember when you were always sleeping. I never could spend time with you because you were always tired.” I’ve worked two jobs since I was fifteen, like for real jobs through school and grad school. I was living in Colombia, the country, flying back to Miami to work a job. It was that type of grinding myself.
I think about how much I missed out on how many weddings, how many holidays, how many moments, how many opportunities for community building, and how many opportunities to work on some conflicts in my family. All of those things were because I was grinding or giving myself to different things. Usually, to your point, it was because, “If I don’t do this, no one is going to do this. If I don’t do this, this organization is going to die. If I don’t do this, this wild candidate is going to win.” It was always like, “I have to do this because no one else would.”
The journey for me stopped in 2020. I don’t know about you, but I thought I was going to die. I didn’t know what was going to happen. I was like, “All these people are dropping. I’m losing all these loved ones. If I’m going to go out, I’m not going to go out like this. What I do know is the world of my dreams, I deserve to live that and embody that right now.
If I’m going to die from this V, I’m at least going to get two weeks of living in bliss. I’m going to do something. I can’t do this.” I left my job. I left my relationship. When I started to shift my priorities, I realized everything around me had the possibility to shift as well. I lived a life where I was the tip of the spear. I lived a life where I felt like I had to sacrifice to deserve something better. When I made a choice, things started to shift.
What about you, Erin?
Health problems too.
I’m going to start with that. One of the things that has happened over the past couple of years that I really appreciated is that we’re talking about how stress shows up in our lives. We’re learning more about autoimmune conditions and things like that. My thirties was when I started to have a number of autoimmune conditions. It got to the point that doctors were like, “You have lupus.” I’m like, “Whoa.” Thankfully, after a number of years of different testing, it ended up that it wasn’t lupus. It was so many different autoimmune conditions and allergies. You start developing allergies because your immune system is compromised. People hear stress kills. It’s not a saying. It’s real.
Before people were talking about sabbaticals and things like that, I had a really traumatic discriminatory situation with a former employer that similarly made me leave. I used the money that I got from that settlement to do a sabbatical. People were like, “You’re on a sabbatical?” I’m like, “Yes.” This was 2019 when people weren’t using sabbatical in that way. I wasn’t in academia at that time, but being with other people who were, I was like, “They say sabbatical. That’s what I’m doing. I’m going to take a year. Where’s the Black girl Eat, Pray, Love?”
I, the same as you, quit that job, left a marriage, and started spending money on myself to do things that I felt like nobody ever invested in me to do. I started doing trainings that I really wanted to do. I became an Angel investor and started investing in businesses. Thank God that happened because the next year was COVID and also living in Minneapolis. It was also George Floyd. If I did not have that rest the year before, I don’t think I would’ve made it.
Being in Minneapolis and being a Black leader, trying to lead organizations in the middle of all of this was a lot and continues to be a lot. There is this attack on DEI, but let’s take that out of it for a second. This attack on female leaders and then you add race to it is something that people don’t talk enough about. We’ve seen in the last couple of years, and it’s not that this didn’t happen before but there are stories covering this, leaders who are committing suicide and leaders who are like, “I can’t take it anymore.”
Being a leader means you’re front and center for attack. People think it’s glorious and sexy. They look at your life and see you sitting here with a microphone and cameras around, but they don’t understand what you go through every day with the way that people talk to you in front of other people and the attacks that you’re under.
I was talking to a girlfriend of mine who’s a fellow leader. We were like, “We need to create a Black Golden Girls sanctuary abroad somewhere where we can feel safe and that people can buy into and say, “I’m going to retire,” because who’s protecting us? We spent our whole lives protecting so many people, but who’s protecting us?”
We’ve talked about all this other stuff, but for those here who know me, I lost my home in a house fire earlier this 2024. I am building an organization that’s so incredibly difficult. I had a child who was going through mental health issues. I was doing all these things by myself plus health issues of my own, taking care of my parents, and doing all these different things.
There were times that I was asking myself, “Are you okay?” Thankfully, so many friends and people have reached out and were like, “Are you okay?” I’m like, “No.” You feel like even when you’re saying you’re not okay, it’s like, “You’re going to be good though. Keep moving because you’re a strong friend. You’re the one that’s there for everybody else.” I have been hanging on by a thread this 2024.
I don’t know if I’m moved or if I’m experiencing a little bit of a trigger with these conversations. It’s caught in my chest as to both relating to everything that folks are saying and then recognizing that what you said there of, “You’ll be good,” is twofold. Number one is us normalizing the responses that we learned, but then also number two, people not really knowing or assuming that they don’t have what you need. It’s like the way the church mothers would be like, “Pray about it.” It’s the ways that we create coping or invite people to cope. Sometimes, people need a conversation or need a little bit deeper than that.
Another thing that’s coming up for me is our team has been speaking to folks about the concept of sabbaticals. Something you said almost brings me to tears because a lot of Black women enter into sabbaticals two ways, at least from our research. It is being fired and/or quitting a job or health issues. We call it a sabbatical.
It’s sad because the way sabbaticals are offered to often non-melanated people is for scholarly research to discover themselves and to write. When they die, they know that they had a period that was dedicated to them self-expressing so that something will be here beyond their physical body. I think about how oftentimes, it’s our bodies being compromised before we say, “I’m going to give myself this time,” that we didn’t even give ourselves. It happened because of some type of tragedy.
The Need For Third Spaces Of Support
When we think about the radical sisterhood or the radical fem leadership that we say has always existed, and this is for everyone, I’m thinking how much more we need those in real life, whether it’s through third spaces, digital spaces, or leadership.
However, I do want to caveat that just because Black women are in leadership, it does not necessarily mean that they are practicing liberatory strategies. Sometimes, that is also a trauma that a lot of Black women experience when it’s like, “I need that Black woman mentor. I need that person who’s going to show me X, Y, and Z.” Sometimes, we don’t necessarily have the vetting tools to determine if they have dealt with their trauma and how they are doing.
There’s so much that’s coming up as to what it looks like from a pipeline perspective to not 1 or 2 but in mass fully free trying individuals that can process their trauma to support the next generation of folks. Also, what does it look like as far as destination, home, or points to return to infrastructure? I don’t know if you all have thoughts about that. Physical or not physical, what does that look like?
I was going to jump in and say some people can’t even receive that mentorship and love. I was talking to a mentee of mine about this where Black women have been through so much trauma. I’ve had mentees perverse me trying to show support because they’re not used to receiving it. Me talking about it, honestly, I’m trying not to cry about it. I don’t mind crying because I feel like that at least means I’m still feeling. There has been a time in my life when I couldn’t even cry because the trauma was so deep. You can’t do it anymore.
I’ve had friends tell me that they’ve had conversations with their husbands or whatever. They’re like, “Erin has nine lives. She’ll land on her feet. She’ll be all right.” I’m like, “Why do I have to have nine lives though? Why do I have to die nine times?” To your question about building pipelines, I’m trying to build as I bring people along and create safe spaces. In all the work that I do, authentically, the common thread is trying to not just make a positive impact on the world but also create the things that I wish had been there for me.
It’s amazing that there are organizations that are giving BIPOC people and female leaders sabbaticals because they’re realizing the toll. We couldn’t even have that conversation before because so much of what we talk about has been muted. I’m going to give you an example. During my time in Minneapolis, I became a leader of a CDFI and was attacked in such a horrible way. I shared this story with Kelly. It was unreal. I couldn’t even get other Black women to support me and have a conversation about it because people are like, “We all go through it. That’s how it is,” or whatever.
As atrocious as it was, and I’ve even had male mentors be like, “I’ve never seen anything like that in my life,” it would be dismissed by the powers that are supposed to be there to protect you in these situations. They dismiss what you go through. That was another time because remember, there was a time before that. It’s because I’m unapologetically Black and very authentic.
I remember going to lead this one particular organization. It was women-focused. I had another opportunity that was focused on the Black community. I had to say to myself, “What am I first? Am I a woman or am I Black?” We shouldn’t have to make that choice. The reason I bring it up is that at the end of the day, I get into the same conversations that we’ve heard throughout time where Black women have stepped into spaces around feminism and they’re like, “These issues don’t apply to me, which is why I’m not a feminist. I’m a womanist.” If you don’t know what that is, look it up. People don’t realize that the definition of womanism comes from Black women saying, “The feminist movement doesn’t embrace my issues. It doesn’t include that.”
I bring this up because I have started to settle into, “I’m Black first before I’m even a woman because there are people who won’t even get past or get to know what I am because they’re so caught up on color.” Then, the woman stuff comes in because people have to know what you are to know how to treat you. We were talking about this before this started. There are people even questioning my Blackness.
I bring this up because it is so important for people to categorize you to see how they want to treat you. Thus, in my opinion, whether or not you’re going to give me respect from the jump instead of us all respecting each other as human beings. It’s the whole caste conversation. Is it race and gender or is this a different way of having a different caste system?
The Importance Of Rest And Frolicking
I agree. What does a pipeline look like? We need a culture shift. We shift culture by shifting our priorities and our practices. The question we ask all the time for culture is, “What’s your personal culture for you?” Similar to you in 2020, I made different choices. I went on my own. People were like, “What’s next?” I’m like, “I’m frolicking. They’re like, “What does that mean?” I’m like, “I don’t know. I’m frolicking.” That was for a year. I did the same thing. I created things that I wanted, rested, played, and spent ample time with my community.
Those choices shifted not only my personal culture, meaning how I talk to myself, the language to myself, and the actions that I had with myself, but then it also started to shift the culture of my family. People weren’t coming to me with stuff that wasn’t frolicking because that’s not what I was prioritizing. I noticed my friends. They were like, “I want to frolic.” I’m like, “We’re frolicking together,” and then we all start frolicking together.
When I think about a pipeline, I think about the infrastructure. We need that culture shift. We get there by how we start prioritizing rest, play, and community over everything. How do we make space for other people to prioritize rest, play, and community over everything? If we start to ask that question in our everyday life, we can then make room for some of the creations of, “Do we want a frolic house?” Do we want this? Do we need to vent?”
We don’t know what we need unless we start to embody what we desire. The pipeline question is how do we start embodying our highest possibility with each other? That pipeline, I feel like, will create itself. Sometimes, we build the thing but we’re not ready for the thing. To your point, you can create a mentorship program, but are you ready for mentorship? Are you in the practice of accepting help? Why are we building a thing if we’re not ready for that?
We were talking about how my birthday is coming up. Going into my birthday, my word is healing. Part of that healing is removing guilt. I remember I was saying to a therapist, “I always feel like I’m in trouble all the time.” They were like, “Let’s unpack that. Why do you feel in trouble?” I was like, “I don’t know, but I feel like it’s because I’m never doing good enough.”
White supremacy.
That and guilt, whether it is guilt as a leader, like, “Did you do enough today? Did you look out for everybody?” or mom guilt, spousal guilt, sibling guilt, friend guilt, or community guilt, like, “Are you doing enough?” I remember during COVID when everyone was on Clubhouse and everybody was like, “I am getting into plants. I am doing yoga.” I was like, “I’m playing spades. I’m trying to get through.”
Spades saved my life. I was like, “I’m not going to feel guilty because I want to play spades and I don’t want to DIY my bathroom. I’m tired of feeling guilty like, “You’re not doing it. You’re not good enough.” I love the frolicking piece because what we’re talking about is a shift in culture, one that we even have these conversations. We’re removing guilt. You are empowering people by showing what it looks like to embrace your authentic self and take the time to even know what that is.
I remember when my son was five. He’s 21 already. I remember when he was 5 and I had my 2nd child. I have the baby and he’s like, “Mom, what do you like to do?” I was like, “I love spending time with you and your brother and your father.” He was like, “That’s about everybody else. What do you like to do?” I didn’t even know because my life had gotten so absorbed. To me, sabbaticals and even creating a pipeline are about being an example to others of choosing yourself first. People call that selfish. I posted the whole Audre Lorde quote. Go ahead. You got it,
Self-care is not being selfish. Self-care is revolutionary.
It’s an act of protest. It is being revolutionary because especially as women, people want you to always be about them and be takers. This is what I say to my kids. I’m like, “I love you but you’re not going to kill me.” I say this to other people. If somebody tries to put some negative energy on me, my new word, and Kelly heard me use it, is, “I rebuke that. You’re not putting that in my life.” People don’t realize words have power. People speak a lot of negative energy into other people’s lives. Instead of having a spirit of jealousy or envy, ask yourself, “How can I frolic more in my own life?”
Kelly, I want you to jump in really quickly. When you said, “I rebuke you,” I want to shout out Sonya Massey. While I know all of us were moved by George Floyd, I think about all the Black women who were also killed that we don’t uplift. That is also part of normalized trauma. That was the last thing that she said to the officer. She told him, “I rebuke you,” and then unfortunately, her life was ended.
The power of Black women, even when we’re scared, is this power of knowing when there’s a negative force and trying our best to protect ourselves. Unfortunately, I feel like there’s almost this burning on both ends of the stick of life that we have, and sometimes a very short life, even when we are trying to assert safety. I wanted to uplift that.
When are we not scared though? That’s what the frolicking thing to me is about. That’s the point.
I agree. I also think that the, “Yes, and?” and un-normalizing that is part of that. Even amongst the Sistren space, sometimes we also participate not here but in the forgetting of our pain. They don’t get uplifted. I don’t want to say if not us, but there is if not us. We are the gatekeepers. When Kelly was bringing up the, “We’re doing all these things for other people,” the two-part is there is no one raising us but us about us even though we would fight for others even outside of Black spaces. I completely agree with you.
I’m talking about how that’s part of the change of culture. I feel like a shift that has happened to me is not living in fear. At the end of the day, we are like these delicate bubbles floating around in the universe. People talk about that.
On a spinning rock.
I’ve heard all of those too. In your TikTok Lifestyle, you’ve heard those ones where they talk about that. I used to say this to my kids when they were little, like, “You are like a delicate little bubble, so let’s be careful.” When you start realizing what they also say, think about all the millions and billions of miracles that had to happen for you to be here at this moment.
When you step into that power, you have a purpose. You are here for a reason. You are exactly who you’re supposed to be. You are perfect the way that you are. The more that you embrace that and live in that power and also are an example to others to do the same, that’s extremely powerful. That’s one of the things I love about Kelly. Kelly is unapologetic and fearless in so many ways. Even though I know sometimes they don’t look that way, that’s what I’m proud of you and BIA about. You have given ecosystem builders a platform to say, “You don’t need to be afraid. We have your back.”
I appreciate that so much. I’m so sad that we have to wrap up this episode, but there are two more quick round-robins. To your point, Erin, I’m very clear in my work in my leadership at BIA. I need to be sustainable and I have to be accountable to myself. You are talking about autoimmune disease. I’m less one thyroid because I have Graves disease that I know was triggered by work-related stress, for a fact. I’m not doing that again. I know stress makes me sick. Even in our workplace, I’m like, “No drama, no stress, no nonsense. We are going to have a healthy work culture. It’s going to be balanced. KB is not going to be in your inbox at 8:00 at night or on the weekends.”
I love that about you because you are a boundary setter around times and your month-long sabbaticals when you need it.
Setting Boundaries
I’m out. One month a year, I’m gone because I go hard in this role. We all have our shadow. It’s about the extent to which you are aware and have tools to manage. For me to keep my shadow in check, I need to be rested, I need to be fit, and I need to be well, which means I need boundaries. I institute them relentlessly and unapologetically. A quick round-robin, what are your boundaries? We’ll then wrap it up with the right to innovate. Your boundaries, what do they look like?
That’s a great question because I am creating new ones. I’m tired of my physical self manifesting that I’ve not been boundary-setting and not been disciplined about certain things. For me, boundaries are, “You will not disrespect me. If I say, “This is how I expect to be treated,” this is how we’re going to move forward. I’m not going to be a volunteer and I’m not going to be a victim.” We sign up for a lot of stuff. It’s never too late to create new boundaries.
I love that.
I’m taking it as what boundaries I have in my work. I’m going to tell you what it is. I don’t work on Fridays. Nobody on my team exists on Fridays. That’s really important because sometimes, we’ll have boundaries, but what boundaries and space are you creating for other people that you’re around to also institute ease in their lives? On Fridays, I don’t exist. On Mondays, sometimes but I try not to have meetings. My sabbatical is yearly and the minimum is a month. In 2023, it was 6 to 8 weeks.
You were frolicking.
That also means I invite my clients and say, “You should be frolicking too.” My clients have annual sabbaticals for their teams. We all break at the same time. You don’t have to work that hard. Another boundary is ease. Ease over everything. It does not have to be this difficult. I’m not sending you 90 emails. It doesn’t need to be 90 emails. I’m not talking to you 20 times because we don’t need to talk 20 times. I’m very serious about what creates ease. I communicate that. I write it in my signature and put it in my contracts. Ease over everything.
What does it say in your signature?
“I hope this is finding you easy. If it doesn’t, don’t respond.”
I love that. Don’t, and it’s okay. When I was talking about the culture shift, we have to do work to let go of urgency. It’s not just urgency in ourselves. It is also the expectations that you have of other people. Things won’t be easy if you want people to move quickly but you want to move slowly. I’m saying, “I’m going to move slowly with intention and I invite you to do the same.” It may not be on my timeline and I need to work through that. Do we have a shared commitment to move with ease, do good work, and cause no harm? Sure. Those are my big boundaries.
Can I call out that she’s bending the universe around her with what she’s doing? I love that because you’re not conforming to that culture. You’re bringing people into your culture of, “We’re going to do this drama-free without the stress. I’m inviting you, but I’m not accepting your invitation over there.”
We’re actively creating our reality. If I’m not bending toward what I know is just for everybody, I’m bending toward something that’s not, and I’m not going to do that. I’ve done that and it has killed me. I had PCOS and all the other things. I had my body break down. I had sinus issues. I had fungal sinusitis. What the heck is fungal sinusitis? They had to open me up. All of these things were manifesting because I was stressed over some stuff you didn’t even need from me. What reality are we actively creating?
A lot of the stress a lot of us are living in, we’re the creators of that. I’m not saying we’re the originators of it. A lot of that is manifestations. We talk about it all the time, White supremacy and capitalist thoughts and beings. We are the managers. We are the leaders. Yeah. We are the EDs. We are creating those cultures, so who are we pointing fingers at? We need to take inventory to say, “Slow the heck down. Let’s look at our work. Do we really have to do all this work?”
You are all up in our business at BIA. We’re like, “Do we really need to do this?”
Honestly, that’s a part of my consulting. I help leaders with this. You’re like, “I have a firm. We do equity and justice.” Are you equitable to yourself? Are you equitable to the organization? We are talking about frolicky.
What is that whole #SoftGirlLife? What is the thing?
The soft girl life is very individualistic. They are talking about themselves. It’s like, “I want soft girl,” but at the expense of who? I want us all to be frolicky. We all can do this. Let’s make a frolicky culture together, not just soft girl.
I was listening to this podcast that was so liberating that said boundaries can be fluid and you can continue to add them. People should feel comfortable with that. I’ll say this for those who struggle with the creation of boundaries because you have inherited a positionality that means that you are available to a lot of people.
A lot of times, people hear boundaries as to what you keep out. Two definitions that helped me are that boundaries are about protection or what you want to protect and then invitation or what you want to invite in. Think of it like a gate. The boundary is also an opportunity to invite people in to support and treat you to be your best person and best self when you’re interacting with them. I’m still learning what are the different ways of inviting folks in.
Especially as I’m getting older, I have a boundary around my brilliance that I really don’t fuck with anymore. I also have a boundary around gaslighting. I am sure about what I feel. I am not always sure that what I feel is factual, but I am sure that how I feel matters. I am not fully there where my communication around how I feel is always the best, but I also am not in a space where I am going to participate in suppressing. There are things that are happening in the dynamic that, based on my limited but also vast intellect and experience, are coming up in this way. Therefore, there is something that needs to be protected.
I will at times invite people into that conversation. Sometimes, my timing is off. I can admit that. It is important for people who care and love me to know that I am protecting something that has been attacked, ridiculed, minimized, and exploited and can be benefited by other people but me. I am not going to leave this earth with anybody questioning that or making me feel bad for that.
As much as we are talking about what we want to build, I do want every person before they transition to not feel like their brilliance only matters when they’re dead and for them to be in a space where it’s being minimized that they’re like, “Get over it. Even when I try, it’s not authentic to where I’m at right now.”
You’re trusting your instincts too, right?
I am.
What so many of us go through is creating a boundary to respect what we’re feeling.
Even though I’m trained as a mediator, I’m also conflict-avoidant, so I can sometimes not get into the protection of myself because I’m trying to protect the other person. To your point, I trust my instinct even though I may not have all the tools how to engage beyond the trusting of the instinct. That gate is still like, “If you don’t protect this, who else will?” I’m still exploring what new boundaries are going to emerge. It’s interesting how these gates are not trying to keep people out, but it is inviting people in. I am inviting myself in first to something that is still a work in progress.
Thank you, ladies. Last question?
Are we not going to get Kelly’s boundaries?
I did share it. I kicked off with my boundaries.
I was talking about your boundaries. I thought there were some other ones you were going to share.
I could do a whole episode on my boundaries. I’m serious about my boundaries.
The Right To Innovate
We don’t want this conversation to end. We can’t wait to bring you back. We are engaging this concept around the right to innovate. In some ways, you all have touched on a lot of the different things that are our birthright. We own. When you hear the term right to innovate in a very succinct way, what comes to your mind, or if you think of these conditions for the right to innovate to be real where these conditions exist? What are some thoughts that come to the top of your mind when you hear right to innovate?
The first word that comes to my mind is authenticity. I don’t think that we innovate from a hidden place. We innovate from an embodied place. The conditions that need to be manifested are a decision priority but also people popping their shit.
They’re owning it and being it.
My brain is like, “The wonders.” Many wonders are stuck on this spinning rock. That water’s also spinning and stuck too. We are these stardust magical beings. We’re not in our full magical form, so how do we think we’re going to innovate? Embody yourself and then you will be. Mine is authenticity.
I love it.
To me, what comes up is that’s our purpose. That’s all of us. We all have unique experiences. People are innovating all the time. They don’t use that language, but that’s what we’re doing. What is your purpose? The more you go through life and experience different things, what are you improving? Fundamentally, at least maybe it’s my hope, we all want to leave the world a better place than we found it. What is your purpose in doing that? We all have the right. We are all subject matter experts on something, but are we leaning into that to innovate?
I often talk about how some of the best innovation comes out of survival, but even this conversation is making me re-think that language. Should it be out of survival or is it out of our right? Is it out of our authenticity? Is it out of our purpose? Is it out of our experiences that we should innovate and we should look to improve something even if it is just ourselves?
When I think about the right to innovate, I feel like it’s more simple than sometimes we make it. We all have the right to live our best lives and our God-given purpose to make the world a better place and change the world. A lot of us don’t own that power. Even hearing about what you’re talking about and how you’re empowering people by living your life and showing that, you’re an example of you have the right to frolic too. To me, frolicking is innovative. It’s the type of frolicking. We all have the right to do it. I love this phrase.
It’s Declaration ‘26.
Is it right to innovate?
That’s right. It’s all about declaring the right to innovate.
Are we hashtagging that?
No. It’s real.
I love you all. You are marketing geniuses.
Our team is amazing.
Thank you, Cici. Thank you, Erin.
Thank you all.
This is beautiful. We are so grateful for you.
Thank you, Kelly.
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We are so grateful for the vulnerability shared by Erin, Cici, and Ife in this episode. Here’s a shout-out to all of our Black women leaders who are standing in the gap for our communities, our families, and our nation. Every single day, we see you, we love you, and we are deeply grateful. With that, thanks, everybody. We’ll see you next time on the show.
Important Links
About Christin “Cici” Battle
Christin “Cici” Battle is a global equity strategist, community builder, and intentional disruptor with the north star of building a world void of systemic oppression. As the Principal of Battle Consulting and the Founder of Frolic Culture, Cici has worked around the world building equitable, people-centered organizations, programs, strategies, and workshops that center the strategically excluded — specifically Black people, women, and girls.
Cici has served in various capacities, from nonprofit Executive Director to professor, and in roles within campaigns and state government. As a fierce leader in untangling the webs of oppression, she is the creator of two inclusion frameworks: “Passion Framing” and “White Supremacy Rehab.” Most recently, she founded Frolic Culture, a culture shift portal dedicated to reclaiming our humanity and imagination through rest, play, and community.
Cici was recognized as one of US Attorney General Preet Bharara’s Café 100 Voices Changing the World and has collaborated with brands such as Viacom, HBO, Pond’s, and Victoria’s Secret. She has been featured on C-SPAN, Cosmopolitan, NowThis, and in the documentary The Revolutionary Generation.
About Erin Horne McKinney
Erin Horne McKinney is an accomplished and award-winning entrepreneur, dedicated to advancing financial inclusion and fostering social impact. She brings a wealth of experience in innovation, strategy, and leadership to her current role as the inaugural National Executive Director of the Howard University & PNC National Center for Entrepreneurship (HUxPNC Center).
Prior to her current position, Erin held key executive roles that underscore her commitment to supporting businesses and championing entrepreneurship. She served as the Executive Vice President of Innovation and Strategy for the Association of Enterprise Opportunity (AEO), CEO of WomenVenture, and Managing Partner of Inclusion for JumpStart Inc. Erin’s influence extends to her tenure as the inaugural Senior Advisor on Innovation and Entrepreneurship in the Executive Office of the Mayor of Washington D.C.
Her expansive career also includes leadership roles with organizations such as the National Association of Multicultural Digital Entrepreneurs (NAMDE), the National Diversity Council, and the Maynard Institute. With a background in entrepreneurship and technology policy, Erin has also contributed to impactful research while holding positions with TechNet, the National Telecommunication and Information Administration within the U.S. Department of Commerce, and the National Black Caucus of State Legislators.
Beyond her professional achievements, Erin is the Founder of the globally recognized membership community, Black Female Founders, which she successfully led through acquisition. A seasoned executive, investor, communication scientist, and serial entrepreneur, Erin possesses more than two decades of experience in grantmaking, entrepreneurship, tech policy, venture capital, economic and business development, and marketing communications.
Dedicated to fostering inclusivity and diversity in the entrepreneurial landscape, Erin is an active member of Pipeline Angels and lends her expertise as an advisor and mentor to startups, incubators, and accelerator programs. She serves as the Vice Chair of the Mayor of Washington D.C.’s Innovation, Technology & Inclusion Council and holds board director positions with the Greater Twin Cities United Way, Tubman, and the Black Innovation Alliance. Erin’s leadership also includes serving as the founding President & CEO of the African American Community Development Corporation (AACDC) in Minnesota. Proudly holding two degrees from Howard University, Erin remains an engaged alum, contributing to the University’s legacy of excellence.
