Join Kelly and Ify in a lively, fast-paced episode of From Chains to Links, where they go back and forth with podcast regular political commentator and NYT bestseller Bakari Sellers. The trio dives into everything, from the crucial difference between pepper sauce and hot sauce to serious discussions about the U.S. Supreme Court, elections, and civil rights. Along the way, they tease, laugh, and unapologetically talk shit. It’s a perfect blend of humor and hard-hitting conversations you won’t want to miss!
Everybody, welcome back to From Chains to Links. I am Kelly Burton, co-host of this amazing show. I’m here with Ifeoma Ike. How are you doing?
I’m great.
We are here with our season regular.
I love it. How are you all?
Welcome back.
Thank you guys for having me. It was an honor last time. I’m glad to be back.
Season two has been lit.
A lot has changed since last year.
That’s good. That’s called growth.
It’s a beautiful thing. We’re going to talk about something different this time.
We made up a game just now. It’s called Ten Questions with Bakari. Ping-pong style. Going back and forth, 60 seconds. We have a fake buzzer and move on to the next person, then we’re done.
I’m good with that.
Kelly, are you ready?
You go first.
Is AI Access To Civil Rights Issue Of Our Time
Here we go. Are you ready? Somebody has a timer. We’re ready to go. Question number one. Is AI access a civil rights issue of our time?
Definitely not. That’s a very presumptuous elite coastal thought. AI is an access issue. It’s something that we have to dig deeper into and make sure that people who look like us have access to the new realm. Van Jones probably would disagree with me on this theory, but there are some more things that we have to deal with first, like access to quality healthcare, first-class education, drinking water, etc, which I would put far and above AI.
What’s Your Favorite Hot Sauce And Why?
What’s your favorite hot sauce?
Hold on, Kelly.
I know, I’m riffing.
Eleven questions with Bakari.
Eleven, that’s fine. Texas Pete.
Why?
Because it’s actual hot sauce. You probably go to the restaurant and ask for hot sauce and you use Tabasco.
Nope, I use Louisiana.
That’s okay.
That’s what my daddy used.
Frank’s is probably better. Tabasco is not a hot sauce, it’s a pepper sauce. That drives me nuts.
What’s The Difference Between A Hot Sauce And A Pepper Sauce?
What’s the difference between a hot sauce and a pepper sauce?
What’s the difference between ketchup and salsa? Those are not even the same thing.
There’s so much difference.
Exactly. They’re not even the same thing.
Is pepper what makes hot sauce?
No.
One has more tomato paste, isn’t it? One is more tomato paste, and the other is more like habanero peppers and stuff like that.
Tabasco is a pepper sauce. Hot sauce is a hot sauce.
We’re learning so much.
One Thing That Needs To Be Disrupted For Black Entrepreneurs To Thrive
That was your question. What’s one thing that needs to be disrupted for black entrepreneurs to thrive?
Access to capital. I think that starts from institutions like the BEA, which is the Black Economic Alliance, which is an amazing group of black execs, corporate execs, and people like Tony Coles and Charles Phillips, who have had that experience. People like Ken Chanel, for example, who’s the CEO of American Express, utilize their platform and C suites to ensure that small businesses, women-owned businesses, and black-owned businesses have access to capital. That’s the most important thing that I see from my perch. I don’t know when this will be published, but for the purposes of this conversation, today, the Fearless Fund disbanded because of actions by the Supreme Court, etc. I think that is a grave step backward in terms of that battle for access to capital.
What do we need to do with the Supreme Court?
There were a lot of us who said in 2016 that there were lesser two evils. There were a lot of us who, for some reason did not understand that Hillary Clinton was far and above Donald Trump. Donald Trump was able to put three justices on the United States Supreme Court. What do we do about the Supreme Court in the very near future as you elect Kamala Harris?
The reason why is that the next president of the United States has an opportunity to replace not only Samuel Alito but Clarence Thomas. That’s two justices on the United States Supreme Court. If Donald Trump can then do that, he will statistically and objectively be the most consequential president in the history of the United States because five justices on the United States Supreme Court will be his picks, and that will transform this country until my kids have kids.
How Do You Manage Success?
How do you manage success?
I don’t know. You have to ask somebody successful.
How Do You Manage Being Regular?
How do you manage being regular?
I just. I don’t know.
What Is Your Definition Of Success?
What is your definition of success?
That’s for other people to determine.
You’re not successful?
I don’t write my own obituary.
Bakari Sellers is just doing well?
I’m winning days.
Winning days?
I win one day at a time. I try to be a good husband and father. I don’t get in all like, “You’ve done this.” I think that’s for other people to write on your obituaries. What was that? When old men die, they get the “He was a special friend” at the bottom of the obituary. You let other people write about all of that stuff. Success is defined by others. I try to make sure that I win each day that comes before me and make sure that tomorrow’s better than yesterday. That’s the only way you can live one step at a time. People who try to eat elephants whole usually choke.
Political Freedom Or Economic Freedom?
You only can pick one, political freedom or economic freedom?
What’s the goal? It’s probably economic freedom. I don’t know. It’s hard to decouple them. There is a certain level of freedom that comes with having that economic freedom. Who came up with that question before I call it what it is? It’s a BS question.
Here’s why I don’t think so.
Let me tell you why it’s a bad question. The question is bad because there’s no such thing as political freedom or economic freedom. It’s perverted in the way you define freedom. I cannot be free until we all are free.
Potentially.
It’s not a potential. If you don’t believe that, that’s a very selfish orientation.
I believe it, but I don’t think that that’s germane to the question. The question was about political or economic. The reason I asked is because I feel that there’s a sequence. I feel that politics exists to deliver economic outcomes, even in our country today. A lot of times we wonder why economics shows up so strongly in terms of special interests. It’s because, in a lot of ways, politics exists to facilitate economics.
What if I told you that you cannot move politics without that economics? You cannot push the process. I think that we have to figure out what we want the word freedom to be. I think until little Black kids can compete in a 21st-century global economy or Black women aren’t dying at three times higher rate during childbirth than White women or Black women who start small businesses at rates that far exceed their peers have access to the same capital or even before you get to criminal justice. I think that until we have a robust conversation about what freedom is, I just push back on the notion of your question because I don’t think it matters when you frame it that way.
One Lesson You Wish You Knew Earlier
One lesson you wish you knew earlier.
I don’t drink gin.
You don’t drink gin?
That would be a lesson that I wish I learned earlier. Gin is a terrible alcohol. You make terrible decisions when you drink gin.
I think I’m doing well right now.
Gin leads to sin.
You probably want to ask others.
How do you all feel?
Her voice shook. I don’t live with regrets. I don’t have any regrets, so I don’t know. All of those things are learning experiences. God orders your steps. You don’t question that. You end up in a dark area when you begin to ask why, why me, you? One of the more powerful things we have, particularly as Black folk, is faith because when we got to this country, we were stripped of absolutely everything. The only thing we had was our faith. I’m a big believer in faith and grace. I don’t have those types of regrets. I just have faith. I have the ability to manage the moment that’s ahead.
Favorite Political Moment
Your favorite political moment?
It’s January 20th or 21st, whatever the date is, of 2025. That’s probably my favorite political one.
You’re manifesting some things up there.
That’s my favorite one.
What We Need To Do Now
What do we need to do now, regardless of who wins the presidency in November? I know you said January 20 something, 2025 is your favorite day already. Thank you for manifesting. In the event, it goes a different way, what do we need to be doing or what do we need to be doing now to make sure it doesn’t go that way?
I think that’s the wrong question to ask. We registered 360,000 voters last night just with a post from Taylor Swift.
What? From that cap post?
360,000 people registered to vote on Vote.org. There’s a lot of power that we have that we don’t understand. I think that this election is going to be one in Milwaukee, Atlanta, Savannah, and Augusta. It’s going to be one in Pittsburgh, Philly, Raleigh, Durham, Charlotte, Greensboro, Winston-Salem, Clark County, Phoenix, Tucson, Detroit, and Grand Rapids. Those are going to be the cities that matter. I think we have so much power and control in this scenario that it’s on us to determine the outcome.
Did you notice my T-shirts?
I did. I cannot read them.
They fire, don’t they?
I cannot read it. What does it say?
It says, “Nobody is scared of Project 2025.” Are you scared?
Yeah.
The good book says fear not.
I know. I say fear is self-awareness. Have you all seen those memes or those little Instagram reels where the girls or the women all sit together and they snap and be like, “Mmm.” That’s how you all sound.
I’m not saying I’m social media-like.
You’re right. That’s how it sounds. It’s just a Black girl thing.
It’s a Black girl thing. They all say something profound and they’re like, “Mmm.”
It’s a whole language. It depends on the tonal rendering of the “Mmm.”
You make me feel like I said something powerful when I get that from you all.
That’s good, right?
I’ll take it.
It’s the power of a Black woman. You’d be saying some stuff and we make you feel like, “That’s deep, baby.”
Do you think we think you’re fake deep because you have to see these?
You do have to see those.
Kelly was like, “That’s good.” I was like, “Ooh.”
Send her some reels.
It’s stuff like because when you’re up, you’re down.
You don’t have Instagram?
I don’t. I do not have Instagram. I know that’s true.
That’s all right.
I will be trying to control my time.
Quickly, do you want to say what Declaration 26 is?
Declaration 26
Declaration 26 is a report we released this week because we think it’s fine for the Heritage Foundation to have their vision of America.
Do you all have that stuff laminated?
Yeah. We are rapid-fire. It’s our vision. It’s our counter plan to Project 2025.
Wait a minute. Project 2025 was 900 pages long with 30 chapters. I see you all.
It’s a vision, brother. It’s a vision.
In the words of Donald Trump, this is a concept.
Hell, no.
Not the concepts.
You all have concepts. I rock with it though. You all got the T-shirts made already, so I’m with you.
To be clear, because I love concepts, our concepts are written out, in all fairness. It’s not like Donald Trump.
I’m with you. We have concepts of a play, and I’m with you. I’ll read it.
It’s that saying that if you want people to read it, it has to be short. It’s like that it takes longer to be clear. Who’s reading 900 pages? Folks were going in and doing the homework and then directing us to pages but we wanted to offer something that people could wrap their heads around.
I’ll read it.
We needed a counter vision and a counter plan because there’s a whole lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth and people salty about it. It’s like, “What’s the clap back?” Declaration 26 is the clap back. 2026 is the 250th year.
Why 26?
I got that for you. See, I read your mind.
2026 is the 250th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence.
That makes sense.
Our American Project is going to be 250 years old. If we want this nation to last another 250 years, we need a vision that is future-forward and inclusive. That’s Declaration 26.
I’m with you.
Are you with it?
We got a T-shirt for you to wear on CNN.
In all fairness, as he keeps lifting up.
No, I’m going to read it like this.
All this is taken out.
I’m going to flip it over. That way, you get more pages.
Is it upside down right now?
No, but that way it looks like it, more pages.
We don’t need more pages. We need folks to read it.
What I appreciate about this is that it is the beginning of a conversation to pivot and to model.
That’s the most important thing. It’s also hard to mobilize a movement of people against something. That’s not the way that movements work. You have to mobilize people around being for something. I agree with that.
Thank you.
This is our most important question.
You know what Kargo said, that’s not the right question. Why are you asking that question? That’s the wrong question.
She framed it as a question.
Kargo said that’s the wrong question. This is the right question.
Give it to him so he can say it’s the wrong question. Give it to that man so he can say it’s the wrong question.
Kicked out of the South if I was born there.
Jersey, we just straight fighting at this point. Put your phone away.
I know, I’m sorry. I was letting you all gather.
This is why he is a regular. When you hear the phrase the right to innovate, what does that mean to you?
The right to innovate is about freedom. That right to innovate is about freedom and innovation is the lifeblood of this country. If you’re not innovating and adapting, you’re dying. The unique part about that though is everyone has the capacity, people don’t have the resources and tools. One of the best things about Kamala Harris’s performance in the debate was that when I talked to her before the debate, I said, “No worries. You got this already done.”
This is when opportunity meets preparation. One of the unique things about innovation is that’s when creativity has to meet the resources that deliver outcomes. We’re not getting to outcomes particularly with Black and Brown and poor folk because they have the creativity but they don’t have the resources. Therefore you cannot have the output of innovation. That’s our job.
Dope. Thank you for going through 36 questions with Bakari Sellers.
I love you, guys.
It was the first time.
I appreciated learning about hot sauce. I feel smarter.
For sure.
Come through.
Do you want to wrap this up before it starts joking about us again in our medium shirts?
Jen led us in and other things that we learned with ten questions with Bakari Sellers.
They going to think you all cannot count.
They going to be like, “What?”
You all need to have a ticker on the side that says ten questions and when it’s sixteen.
Ten-ish questions. Ten-ish questions with Bakari Sellers. Thank you, everybody, for joining us for this episode of From Chains to Link with our series season regular, Bakari Sellers. We’re so grateful for all the ways you all show up for our community. Continue to follow us at BlackInnovationAlliance.com because we’re going to continue to go deep on the questions that matter. Thanks, everybody. See you all next time.
Important Links
About Bakari Sellers
Two-time NY Times best-selling Author, Civil Rights Activist, Attorney, Entrepreneur, Legislator, and overall Prolific voice of the Culture, Bakari Sellers continues to build upon the strong legacy he inherited as the son of Gwendolyn Sellers and civil rights leader Cleveland Sellers. While his dad helped shape movements working alongside Stokely Carmichael, Bayard Rustin, and Malcolm X, Bakari has come into his own, helping to write the blueprint for today’s movements with the likes of Rep. James Clyburn, Attorney Benjamin Crump, and President Barack Obama.
Bakari forged his own path from very early on. He entered Morehouse College at the age of 16. He went on to become a graduate of the University of South Carolina Law School and he became the youngest legislator in the South Carolina state legislature at 22. He carries this mantle of success with the right balance of gravitas, style, generosity, and humility-a nod to his humble beginnings in Denmark, SC where “please and thank you” are the chief currency in town. In penning both his memoir My Vanishing Country and a children’s book entitled “Who Are Your People?,” Bakari pays homage to the working-class values that encouraged him to “dream with his eyes wide open” and that are the predicate for his persistent fight for diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) in the US and abroad. Bakari’s third book “The Moment” was released on April 24th of this year. In this powerful and persuasive book, Sellers expands on the issues he addressed in his New York Times bestseller My Vanishing Country, examining national politics and policies that deeply impact not only Black people in his home state of South Carolina but the lives of millions of African Americans in communities across the nation. Four years later, Sellers has an answer to the question he raised on CNN, offering much-needed prescriptions to help all Black American lives.
A CNN analyst, Bakari also brings an ability to elevate discourse such that people always feel one step closer to a solution or resolution after he speaks. He combines these and many other talents in his new podcast, The Bakari Sellers Podcast which airs two times a week on the Ringer Podcast Network. Sellers has also been an attorney with the Strom Law Firm, L.L.C. in Columbia, South Carolina since 2007, where he heads up the firm’s Strategic Communication and Public Affairs team and the DEI Consulting practice.
He is married to Dr. Ellen Rucker-Sellers and they are the proud parents of three children.
